According to the BBC lightning damaged the railway leccy supply, presumably
it hit the OHLE?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckkex937lk0o

Just wondering how well the trains and infrastructgure is insulated from this
sort of thing , eg if lightning directly hits the OHLE will everything trip
temporarily or will some emergency fuses blow and everything comes to a halt
until someone can fix them?

On 02/05/2024 09:57, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> According to the BBC lightning damaged the railway leccy supply, presumably
> it hit the OHLE?
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckkex937lk0o
>
> Just wondering how well the trains and infrastructgure is insulated from this
> sort of thing , eg if lightning directly hits the OHLE will everything trip
> temporarily or will some emergency fuses blow and everything comes to a halt
> until someone can fix them?
>

Being as it was in Wiltshire, there will be little chance of a OHLE strike.
Any electric supply is vulnerable to a lightning strike. Thats why there
are numerous lightning conductors on infrastructure, if a strike hits,
you want to dissipate that energy into the ground immediately, not allow
it to travel all around your electrical installation or internal
metallic pipework.
Most supplies should have some type of surge arrestor at the main
electrical supply boards that supply the individual boards, though older
stuff wont have it, so is susceptible to lightning damage.
I'd suspect some of the signalling supply was damaged by the strike in
Wiltshire, there will be many PCBs in the signalling equipment, they are
very easy to damage by any type of voltage surge, and are particularly
difficult to protect against all types of surges, especially one that is
a lightning strike on a signalling post.

On Thu, 2 May 2024 10:28:06 +0100
Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> wrote:
>On 02/05/2024 09:57, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> According to the BBC lightning damaged the railway leccy supply, presumably
>> it hit the OHLE?
>>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckkex937lk0o
>>
>> Just wondering how well the trains and infrastructgure is insulated from this
>
>> sort of thing , eg if lightning directly hits the OHLE will everything trip
>> temporarily or will some emergency fuses blow and everything comes to a halt
>> until someone can fix them?
>>
>
>Being as it was in Wiltshire, there will be little chance of a OHLE strike.

Doesn't the GWR run through Wiltshire?

>Any electric supply is vulnerable to a lightning strike. Thats why there
>are numerous lightning conductors on infrastructure, if a strike hits,
>you want to dissipate that energy into the ground immediately, not allow
>it to travel all around your electrical installation or internal
>metallic pipework.

I can imagine with lightning even if its got a route to ground, the voltage
is so high that it'll go along any attached metal structures too.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 2 May 2024 10:28:06 +0100
> Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> wrote:
>> On 02/05/2024 09:57, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> According to the BBC lightning damaged the railway leccy supply, presumably
>>> it hit the OHLE?
>>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckkex937lk0o
>>>
>>> Just wondering how well the trains and infrastructgure is insulated from this
>>
>>> sort of thing , eg if lightning directly hits the OHLE will everything trip
>>> temporarily or will some emergency fuses blow and everything comes to a halt
>>> until someone can fix them?
>>>
>>
>> Being as it was in Wiltshire, there will be little chance of a OHLE strike.
>
> Doesn't the GWR run through Wiltshire?
>
>> Any electric supply is vulnerable to a lightning strike. Thats why there
>> are numerous lightning conductors on infrastructure, if a strike hits,
>> you want to dissipate that energy into the ground immediately, not allow
>> it to travel all around your electrical installation or internal
>> metallic pipework.
>
> I can imagine with lightning even if its got a route to ground, the voltage
> is so high that it'll go along any attached metal structures too.
>
>

Switzerland has a lot of thunder storms and the railway carries on. So I’d
imagine the art of protecting OHLE is known.

On 02/05/2024 11:03, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> Being as it was in Wiltshire, there will be little chance of a OHLE strike.
> Doesn't the GWR run through Wiltshire?

The report said Westbury, which isnt wired. But yes, there are GWML
wires in Wiltshire.

In message <v0vmb6$3p103$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:28:06 on Thu, 2 May
2024, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> remarked:
>On 02/05/2024 09:57, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> According to the BBC lightning damaged the railway leccy supply, presumably
>> it hit the OHLE?
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckkex937lk0o

>> Just wondering how well the trains and infrastructgure is insulated
>>from this sort of thing , eg if lightning directly hits the OHLE will
>>everything trip temporarily or will some emergency fuses blow and
>>everything comes to a halt until someone can fix them?
>
>Being as it was in Wiltshire, there will be little chance of a OHLE strike.

The news today is reporting widespread thunderstorms in south Essex,
London and towards Reading.

>Any electric supply is vulnerable to a lightning strike. Thats why
>there are numerous lightning conductors on infrastructure, if a strike
>hits, you want to dissipate that energy into the ground immediately,
>not allow it to travel all around your electrical installation or
>internal metallic pipework.

I was at Cambridge station about eight years ago when there was a
lightning strike, on I think a lamp standard which illuminated the
carriage sidings. It was extremely loud! And took out the PIS and
presumably triggered the fire alarms because the big red engines
arrived about five minutes later.

>Most supplies should have some type of surge arrestor at the main
>electrical supply boards that supply the individual boards, though
>older stuff wont have it, so is susceptible to lightning damage.
>I'd suspect some of the signalling supply was damaged by the strike in
>Wiltshire, there will be many PCBs in the signalling equipment, they
>are very easy to damage by any type of voltage surge, and are
>particularly difficult to protect against all types of surges,
>especially one that is a lightning strike on a signalling post.

--
Roland Perry

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> According to the BBC lightning damaged the railway leccy supply, presumably
> it hit the OHLE?
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckkex937lk0o
>
> Just wondering how well the trains and infrastructgure is insulated from this
> sort of thing , eg if lightning directly hits the OHLE will everything trip
> temporarily or will some emergency fuses blow and everything comes to a halt
> until someone can fix them?

You don’t need a direct hit on the infrastructure to cause damage. A
nearby lightning discharge can induce large voltages in suitable
conductors. We used to have RS-232 and X.25 infrastructure in an area that
seemed to attract thunderstorms. It was slightly before our time but our
museum/scrap pile used to have a couple of boards which were victims. One
simply had the tops blown off the driver chips, leaving the DIP legs poking
out of the board. The other looked like a bullet had gone through the
board where the chip used to be.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 02/05/2024 13:46, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <v0vmb6$3p103$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:28:06 on Thu, 2 May
> 2024, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> remarked:
>> On 02/05/2024 09:57, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> According to the BBC lightning damaged the railway leccy supply,
>>> presumably
>>> it hit the OHLE?
>>>  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckkex937lk0o
>
>>>  Just wondering how well the trains and infrastructgure is insulated
>>> from this  sort of thing , eg if lightning directly hits the OHLE
>>> will everything trip  temporarily or will some emergency fuses blow
>>> and everything comes to a halt  until someone can fix them?
>>
>> Being as it was in Wiltshire, there will be little chance of a OHLE
>> strike.
>
> The news today is reporting widespread thunderstorms in south Essex,
> London and towards Reading.
>

Went through here in the wee small hours, very noisy!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall wrote:

> On 02/05/2024 13:46, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <v0vmb6$3p103$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:28:06 on Thu, 2 May
>> 2024, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> remarked:
>>> On 02/05/2024 09:57, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> According to the BBC lightning damaged the railway leccy supply,
>>>> presumably
>>>> it hit the OHLE?
>>>>  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckkex937lk0o
>>
>>>>  Just wondering how well the trains and infrastructgure is insulated
>>>> from this  sort of thing , eg if lightning directly hits the OHLE
>>>> will everything trip  temporarily or will some emergency fuses blow
>>>> and everything comes to a halt  until someone can fix them?
>>>
>>> Being as it was in Wiltshire, there will be little chance of a OHLE
>>> strike.
>>
>> The news today is reporting widespread thunderstorms in south Essex,
>> London and towards Reading.
>>

> Went through here in the wee small hours, very noisy!

Should come here.
https://www.tagesschau.de/wetter
https://www.tagesschau.de/wetter/unwetter/index.html

I might do one tram & bus trip a bit earlier in order not to get struck.

Regards, ULF

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
> I was at Cambridge station about eight years ago when there was a
> lightning strike, on I think a lamp standard which illuminated the
> carriage sidings. It was extremely loud! And took out the PIS and
> presumably triggered the fire alarms because the big red engines
> arrived about five minutes later.

Was one called James?

GH

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> According to the BBC lightning damaged the railway leccy supply, presumably
>> it hit the OHLE?
>>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckkex937lk0o
>>
>> Just wondering how well the trains and infrastructgure is insulated from this
>> sort of thing , eg if lightning directly hits the OHLE will everything trip
>> temporarily or will some emergency fuses blow and everything comes to a halt
>> until someone can fix them?
>
> You don’t need a direct hit on the infrastructure to cause damage. A
> nearby lightning discharge can induce large voltages in suitable
> conductors. We used to have RS-232 and X.25 infrastructure in an area that
> seemed to attract thunderstorms. It was slightly before our time but our
> museum/scrap pile used to have a couple of boards which were victims. One
> simply had the tops blown off the driver chips, leaving the DIP legs poking
> out of the board. The other looked like a bullet had gone through the
> board where the chip used to be.
>
> Sam
>

That’s a familar tale. We had underground inter building RS232 wiring.
There was a strike to ground in the nearby park. Similar result - very
visibly blown up DIL chips. We did invest in transient suppressors after
that. Another reason to have FTTP?

On Thu, 2 May 2024 13:01:02 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> According to the BBC lightning damaged the railway leccy supply, presumably
>> it hit the OHLE?
>>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckkex937lk0o
>>
>> Just wondering how well the trains and infrastructgure is insulated from this
>
>> sort of thing , eg if lightning directly hits the OHLE will everything trip
>> temporarily or will some emergency fuses blow and everything comes to a halt
>> until someone can fix them?
>
>You don’t need a direct hit on the infrastructure to cause damage. A
>nearby lightning discharge can induce large voltages in suitable
>conductors. We used to have RS-232 and X.25 infrastructure in an area that
>seemed to attract thunderstorms. It was slightly before our time but our
>museum/scrap pile used to have a couple of boards which were victims. One
>simply had the tops blown off the driver chips, leaving the DIP legs poking
>out of the board. The other looked like a bullet had gone through the
>board where the chip used to be.

Presumably the voltage was so high any fuses were next to useless as it
could bridge any gap they caused anyway?

On Thu, 2 May 2024 14:14:34 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> According to the BBC lightning damaged the railway leccy supply, presumably
>>> it hit the OHLE?
>>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckkex937lk0o
>>>
>>> Just wondering how well the trains and infrastructgure is insulated from
>this
>>> sort of thing , eg if lightning directly hits the OHLE will everything trip
>>> temporarily or will some emergency fuses blow and everything comes to a halt
>
>>> until someone can fix them?
>>
>> You don’t need a direct hit on the infrastructure to cause damage. A
>> nearby lightning discharge can induce large voltages in suitable
>> conductors. We used to have RS-232 and X.25 infrastructure in an area that
>> seemed to attract thunderstorms. It was slightly before our time but our
>> museum/scrap pile used to have a couple of boards which were victims. One
>> simply had the tops blown off the driver chips, leaving the DIP legs poking
>> out of the board. The other looked like a bullet had gone through the
>> board where the chip used to be.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>
>That’s a familar tale. We had underground inter building RS232 wiring.
>There was a strike to ground in the nearby park. Similar result - very
>visibly blown up DIL chips. We did invest in transient suppressors after
>that. Another reason to have FTTP?

Given lightning is quite happily running down 50 foot of wood in a tree
I wouldn't get your hopes up that that would help much if it got a
direct hit.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 2 May 2024 13:01:02 -0000 (UTC)
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> According to the BBC lightning damaged the railway leccy supply, presumably
>>> it hit the OHLE?
>>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckkex937lk0o
>>>
>>> Just wondering how well the trains and infrastructgure is insulated from this
>>
>>> sort of thing , eg if lightning directly hits the OHLE will everything trip
>>> temporarily or will some emergency fuses blow and everything comes to a halt
>>> until someone can fix them?
>>
>> You don’t need a direct hit on the infrastructure to cause damage. A
>> nearby lightning discharge can induce large voltages in suitable
>> conductors. We used to have RS-232 and X.25 infrastructure in an area that
>> seemed to attract thunderstorms. It was slightly before our time but our
>> museum/scrap pile used to have a couple of boards which were victims. One
>> simply had the tops blown off the driver chips, leaving the DIP legs poking
>> out of the board. The other looked like a bullet had gone through the
>> board where the chip used to be.
>
> Presumably the voltage was so high any fuses were next to useless as it
> could bridge any gap they caused anyway?

Don’t know about that. You don’t usually have fuses in an RS-232 line,
though we did later have some boxes of some sort, possibly with fuses in,
to link our routers to 2Mbps serial lines on X.21. The ones that were
“hit” by lightning were terminal to X.25 PAD connections.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> According to the BBC lightning damaged the railway leccy supply, presumably
>>> it hit the OHLE?
>>>
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckkex937lk0o
>>>
>>> Just wondering how well the trains and infrastructgure is insulated from this
>>> sort of thing , eg if lightning directly hits the OHLE will everything trip
>>> temporarily or will some emergency fuses blow and everything comes to a halt
>>> until someone can fix them?
>>
>> You don’t need a direct hit on the infrastructure to cause damage. A
>> nearby lightning discharge can induce large voltages in suitable
>> conductors. We used to have RS-232 and X.25 infrastructure in an area that
>> seemed to attract thunderstorms. It was slightly before our time but our
>> museum/scrap pile used to have a couple of boards which were victims. One
>> simply had the tops blown off the driver chips, leaving the DIP legs poking
>> out of the board. The other looked like a bullet had gone through the
>> board where the chip used to be.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>
> That’s a familar tale. We had underground inter building RS232 wiring.
> There was a strike to ground in the nearby park. Similar result - very
> visibly blown up DIL chips. We did invest in transient suppressors after
> that. Another reason to have FTTP?

I got into networking as X.25 and serial connections were being replaced by
ethernet[1], and all our inter-building links were fibre from then on.

[1] And FDDI, and then ATM and then ethernet again.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 02/05/2024 09:57, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> According to the BBC lightning damaged the railway leccy supply, presumably
> it hit the OHLE?
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckkex937lk0o
>
> Just wondering how well the trains and infrastructgure is insulated from this
> sort of thing , eg if lightning directly hits the OHLE will everything trip
> temporarily or will some emergency fuses blow and everything comes to a halt
> until someone can fix them?

I would expect a hit on OHLE to be have similar consequences to transmission
and distribution equipment - a brief interruption to clear the fault and
then an auto-reclose, but damage to equipment is always possible. OTOH a hit
to signalling equipment is probably going to cause significant damage that
will need to be repaired.

5<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:

>> That’s a familar tale. We had underground inter building RS232 wiring.
>> There was a strike to ground in the nearby park. Similar result - very
>> visibly blown up DIL chips. We did invest in transient suppressors after
>> that. Another reason to have FTTP?
>
> Given lightning is quite happily running down 50 foot of wood in a tree
> I wouldn't get your hopes up that that would help much if it got a
> direct hit.
>
>
>
>

It will be the moisture in that wood that makes it a good conductor .
The danger from being close to a tree that is struck by lightning isn’t so
much the risk of electrical shock *after all the tree has already completed
the path between the ground and the lighting bolt much like a lightning
conductor on a tall building does. The danger is more being hit by flying
bits of wood or if stood very close by scalding as the water in a tree
which is often around 30-50% of its weight is suddenly turned into steam.
which explosively rips the tree apart. A fibre cable made from glass
strands will have no water to do that.

* There is risk of shock by current spreading outwards through the ground
travelling up one leg and down the other if your feet are far enough apart
which is why four legged farm animals are often killed in the vicinity of a
lighting strike, so its wise not to hold hands with someone if you think
you are close to where a strike may hit.

GH

Roger Lynn submitted this idea :
> On 02/05/2024 09:57, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> According to the BBC lightning damaged the railway leccy supply, presumably
>> it hit the OHLE?
>>
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckkex937lk0o
>>
>> Just wondering how well the trains and infrastructgure is insulated from
>> this sort of thing , eg if lightning directly hits the OHLE will everything
>> trip temporarily or will some emergency fuses blow and everything comes to a
>> halt until someone can fix them?
>
> I would expect a hit on OHLE to be have similar consequences to transmission
> and distribution equipment - a brief interruption to clear the fault and
> then an auto-reclose, but damage to equipment is always possible. OTOH a hit
> to signalling equipment is probably going to cause significant damage that
> will need to be repaired.

This is what you have to protect OHLE from lighthning strikes. This is
Belgium, 3 kV= OHLE. Sorry for the comment in french in the video, not
interesting anyway so you can just ignore it. Images speak enough for
themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AZKPFGepIA

--
Marc Van Dyck

On 3/5/24 01:35, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

> Given lightning is quite happily running down 50 foot of wood in a tree
> I wouldn't get your hopes up that that would help much if it got a
> direct hit.

But would only destroy the equipment in the building that got hit. It
wouldn't travel down the line and destroy the equipment at the other end
as well!.

On 07/05/2024 08:40, Matthew Geier wrote:
>> Given lightning is quite happily running down 50 foot of wood in a tree
>> I wouldn't get your hopes up that that would help much if it got a
>> direct hit.
>
> But would only destroy the equipment in the building that got hit. It
> wouldn't travel down the line and destroy the equipment at the other end
> as well!.

On a HV course we were told of a house that got wrecked because they had
better earth than a substation some distance away. The lightning
decided they were a better place to discharge all the energy.

Lighting is very unpredictable.

We had the usual metal convector heaters and a metal trolley for putting
test equipment on. I went to move the trolley and it would not move,
gave it a sharp pull and came OK. I could then see that it had been
'spot welded' to one of the heaters that it had been in contact with.

There was a telephone on the trolley, its 'coiled cord' was draped over
the (metal) edge of the trolley and discoloured. Put a new fuse in the
BT line and the telephone was still working (was probably after we had
our telephone line up the hill put on a microwave link because it was
usually damaged by any lightning).

On Wed, 8 May 2024 15:30:28 +0100
JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>On 07/05/2024 08:40, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>> Given lightning is quite happily running down 50 foot of wood in a tree
>>> I wouldn't get your hopes up that that would help much if it got a
>>> direct hit.
>>
>> But would only destroy the equipment in the building that got hit. It
>> wouldn't travel down the line and destroy the equipment at the other end
>> as well!.
>
>
>
>On a HV course we were told of a house that got wrecked because they had
>better earth than a substation some distance away. The lightning
>decided they were a better place to discharge all the energy.
>
>Lighting is very unpredictable.

When you get up to 100s of millions of volts all bets are off as to what
electricity will do.