The net is full of people having issues with phones they only thought
were OFF. My android Zflip is even worse that a simple conventional
design. Most times I turn it OFF/ON to be sure, there being no obvious,
bulletproof, always in your face, indication which should be a prerequisite.

bad sector wrote:

> The net is full of people having issues with phones they only thought
> were OFF.

If you press the power button* and the screen comes on in under one
second the phone wasn't OFF, it was just ASLEEP.

[*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the screen,
or poking the fingerprint reader.

On 25/04/2024 08:26, Andy Burns wrote:
> bad sector wrote:
>
>> The net is full of people having issues with phones they only thought
>> were OFF.
>
> If you press the power button* and the screen comes on in under one
> second the phone wasn't OFF, it was just ASLEEP.

I think that's a too inactive term! It's checking with the cell towers
regularly, waiting to see if there are any messages or emails. It's
sending location data, also possibly using bluetooth and/or Wi-Fi to see
what's going on nearby, and who knows what else. I would say it's just
"got its eyes closed" while doing what it's been told to do. :-)

> [*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the screen,
> or poking the fingerprint reader.

The lifting it up thing is interesting. I wonder if that's done with an
accelerometer? If so, it would be checking that too.

--
Jeff

Jeff Layman wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the screen,
>> or poking the fingerprint reader.
>
> The lifting it up thing is interesting. I wonder if that's done with an
> accelerometer? If so, it would be checking that too.

Most likely, though mine probably uses a magnetometer too, as it can do
different things depending if it's face-up or face-down.

With the enhanced "find my device" service, for newer phones being
turned OFF will no longer mean really OFF, bluetooth (and UWB?) will
still be active ...

On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:47:17 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:

>> [*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the screen,
>> or poking the fingerprint reader.
>
> The lifting it up thing is interesting. I wonder if that's done with an
> accelerometer? If so, it would be checking that too.

A few more comments, but I don't know much about this topic.

1. Even if a phone is "off", when you plug in a charger, "something
happens", so is it really off? I don't know, but how does it charge?

2. The government has, in the past, secretly modified gangster's phones
such that they looked to be off, but were secretly still transmitting.

3. The iPhone, I believe, is never off, which, I'm told, is how the FindMy
sensing works for stolen phones.

How does any of that work? I don't know.

On 04/25/2024 5:27 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
> Jeff Layman wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the screen,
>>> or poking the fingerprint reader.
>>
>> The lifting it up thing is interesting. I wonder if that's done with
>> an accelerometer? If so, it would be checking that too.
>
> Most likely, though mine probably uses a magnetometer too, as it can do
> different things depending if it's face-up or face-down.
>
> With the enhanced "find my device" service, for newer phones being
> turned OFF will no longer mean really OFF, bluetooth (and UWB?) will
> still be active ...
>
>
I don't have a lot of experience with cell phones, but mine can be
turned off. To turn it off complete you press and hold the power key
until a screen comes up that gives a couple of options. On is to turn
of the cell phone. When you press the power button, it goes through
the complete start up routine that it went through when purchased.

On 4/25/24 03:26, Andy Burns wrote:
> bad sector wrote:
>
>> The net is full of people having issues with phones they only thought
>> were OFF.
>
> If you press the power button* and the screen comes on in under one
> second the phone wasn't OFF, it was just ASLEEP.
>
>
> [*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the screen,
> or poking the fingerprint reader.

Sorry, I meant a call and not being powered or not. The little phone
icon is green or red or whatever. It should always be visible when the
unit is powered and should either be grayscale with a red bold X on it
when on-hook or be bright red showing a flashing lifted hook when
off-hook. The entire OS is full of ambiguities and lack of positive
fedback as far as I'm concerned. The test should be giving the phone to
someone who has never used one and asking what the current state is,
THAT's how intuitive and *unmistakable* it needs to be!

On 4/25/24 05:29, Nick Cine wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:47:17 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:
>
>>> [*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the screen,
>>> or poking the fingerprint reader.
>>
>> The lifting it up thing is interesting. I wonder if that's done with an
>> accelerometer? If so, it would be checking that too.
>
> A few more comments, but I don't know much about this topic.
>
> 1. Even if a phone is "off", when you plug in a charger, "something
> happens", so is it really off? I don't know, but how does it charge?
>
> 2. The government has, in the past, secretly modified gangster's phones
> such that they looked to be off, but were secretly still transmitting.
>
> 3. The iPhone, I believe, is never off, which, I'm told, is how the FindMy
> sensing works for stolen phones.
>
> How does any of that work? I don't know.

For one thing the battery should be removable with one hand,
blindfolded, in 3 seconds or less.

On 25/04/2024 10:29, Nick Cine wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:47:17 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:
>
>>> [*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the screen,
>>> or poking the fingerprint reader.
>>
>> The lifting it up thing is interesting. I wonder if that's done with an
>> accelerometer? If so, it would be checking that too.
>
> A few more comments, but I don't know much about this topic.
>
> 1. Even if a phone is "off", when you plug in a charger, "something
> happens", so is it really off? I don't know, but how does it charge?

The charging circuitry is within the battery itself. It controls the
rate of charge and, in particular, monitors the temperature of the
cell(s). If it gets too high it will stop the charging. Note though,
that the connection from the phone's charger socket (lightning, USB, or
whatever) goes through some of the phone's circuitry, so the phone knows
the state of charge of its battery. That way its % charge can be
displayed on the phone's screen, and battery-usage apps can let you know
what's being used and how long the phone might last before recharging is
essential.

> 2. The government has, in the past, secretly modified gangster's phones
> such that they looked to be off, but were secretly still transmitting.

What makes you think that was in the past and only affected crim's
phones?! ;-)

> 3. The iPhone, I believe, is never off, which, I'm told, is how the FindMy
> sensing works for stolen phones.

I don't know about iPhones, but with my Xiaomi Android phone I can
supposedly switch off "Find my phone". However, I'm not in control of
the OS and really have little idea of what it does in the background.
And even if you do work it all out, the next time an OS update appears
you could be back at square one again!

You can only be sure that a phone is truly off by removing its battery,
and that is becoming less likely every time a new model comes out. If
you power down "completely" by, for example, giving a long press on the
power switch, then you still have to accept the Manufacturer's word that
the phone is "off" as there's no way of testing it AFAIAA.

> How does any of that work? I don't know.

--
Jeff

On 2024-04-25 11:29, Nick Cine wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:47:17 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:
>
>>> [*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the screen,
>>> or poking the fingerprint reader.
>>
>> The lifting it up thing is interesting. I wonder if that's done with an
>> accelerometer? If so, it would be checking that too.
>
> A few more comments, but I don't know much about this topic.
>
> 1. Even if a phone is "off", when you plug in a charger, "something
> happens", so is it really off? I don't know, but how does it charge?

But the operating system is not running, radios are off. This can be
known because when you press the power button it takes some time before
the phone responds. It is booting.

What exact circuitry is on when the charger is connected is up to
speculation.

> 2. The government has, in the past, secretly modified gangster's phones
> such that they looked to be off, but were secretly still transmitting.

Hum. Dubitable.

For one thing, the battery is spent soon if it is transmitting. A
question of hours.

>
> 3. The iPhone, I believe, is never off, which, I'm told, is how the FindMy
> sensing works for stolen phones.
>
> How does any of that work? I don't know.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
[...]

> The charging circuitry is within the battery itself. It controls the
> rate of charge and, in particular, monitors the temperature of the
> cell(s). If it gets too high it will stop the charging. Note though,
> that the connection from the phone's charger socket (lightning, USB, or
> whatever) goes through some of the phone's circuitry, so the phone knows
> the state of charge of its battery. That way its % charge can be
> displayed on the phone's screen, and battery-usage apps can let you know
> what's being used and how long the phone might last before recharging is
> essential.

The fact that the phone is charging and how full its battery is, is
also displayed/displayable when the phone is switched 'off'.

Ergo, the phone is never really off. It's either awake or sleeping
during normal use or in cold standby when the user switched it 'off'.

[...]

In comp.mobile.android, on Thu, 25 Apr 2024 08:26:16 +0100, Andy Burns
<usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

>bad sector wrote:
>
>> The net is full of people having issues with phones they only thought
>> were OFF.
>
>If you press the power button* and the screen comes on in under one
>second the phone wasn't OFF, it was just ASLEEP.

I thought if the screen comes on in under a second that means the screen
has been blackened, and everything else was/is ON. It runs down the
battery a lot faster than sleeping should.
>
>
>[*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the screen,
>or poking the fingerprint reader.

In comp.mobile.android, on Thu, 25 Apr 2024 07:00:53 -0400, bad?sector
<forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:

>On 4/25/24 05:29, Nick Cine wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:47:17 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>
>>>> [*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the screen,
>>>> or poking the fingerprint reader.
>>>
>>> The lifting it up thing is interesting. I wonder if that's done with an
>>> accelerometer? If so, it would be checking that too.
>>
>> A few more comments, but I don't know much about this topic.
>>
>> 1. Even if a phone is "off", when you plug in a charger, "something
>> happens", so is it really off? I don't know, but how does it charge?
>>
>> 2. The government has, in the past, secretly modified gangster's phones
>> such that they looked to be off, but were secretly still transmitting.
>>
>> 3. The iPhone, I believe, is never off, which, I'm told, is how the FindMy
>> sensing works for stolen phones.
>>
>> How does any of that work? I don't know.
>
>For one thing the battery should be removable with one hand,
>blindfolded, in 3 seconds or less.

Wyatt Earp could do that but I can't.

In comp.mobile.android, on Thu, 25 Apr 2024 15:13:40 +0200, "Carlos
E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

>On 2024-04-25 11:29, Nick Cine wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:47:17 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>
>>>> [*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the screen,
>>>> or poking the fingerprint reader.
>>>
>>> The lifting it up thing is interesting. I wonder if that's done with an
>>> accelerometer? If so, it would be checking that too.
>>
>> A few more comments, but I don't know much about this topic.
>>
>> 1. Even if a phone is "off", when you plug in a charger, "something
>> happens", so is it really off? I don't know, but how does it charge?
>
>But the operating system is not running, radios are off. This can be
>known because when you press the power button it takes some time before
>the phone responds. It is booting.

Doesn't whether it boots or not depend on what made the screen black?

Did the OP ever say how his screen got into the situation it's in?

If the screen times out, the radios were still be running, I presume the
OS is running, the phone will ring if someone calls. HOw is that "off"?
>What exact circuitry is on when the charger is connected is up to
>speculation.
>
>
>> 2. The government has, in the past, secretly modified gangster's phones
>> such that they looked to be off, but were secretly still transmitting.
>
>Hum. Dubitable.
>
>For one thing, the battery is spent soon if it is transmitting. A
>question of hours.

Right. Unless the phone is truly Off.
>
>
>>
>> 3. The iPhone, I believe, is never off, which, I'm told, is how the FindMy
>> sensing works for stolen phones.
>>
>> How does any of that work? I don't know.

Am 25.04.24 um 11:29 schrieb Nick Cine:
> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:47:17 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:
>
>>> [*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the screen,
>>> or poking the fingerprint reader.
>>
>> The lifting it up thing is interesting. I wonder if that's done with an
>> accelerometer? If so, it would be checking that too.
>
> A few more comments, but I don't know much about this topic.

Then you better shut up.

> 1. Even if a phone is "off", when you plug in a charger, "something
> happens", so is it really off? I don't know, but how does it charge?

Do you still live in the 80s of the last century? Charging electronics
is seperate from the OS.

> 2. The government has, in the past, secretly modified gangster's phones
> such that they looked to be off, but were secretly still transmitting.

They call her SIRI and her boy friend is Google.

> 3. The iPhone, I believe, is never off, which, I'm told, is how the FindMy
> sensing works for stolen phones.

Simple mind. Why are you writing here? Are you bored?

> How does any of that work? I don't know.

Obviously.

--
"Gutta cavat lapidem." (Ovid)

On 25.04.24 15:55, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> [...]
>
>> The charging circuitry is within the battery itself. It controls the
>> rate of charge and, in particular, monitors the temperature of the
>> cell(s). If it gets too high it will stop the charging. Note though,
>> that the connection from the phone's charger socket (lightning, USB, or
>> whatever) goes through some of the phone's circuitry, so the phone knows
>> the state of charge of its battery. That way its % charge can be
>> displayed on the phone's screen, and battery-usage apps can let you know
>> what's being used and how long the phone might last before recharging is
>> essential.
>
> The fact that the phone is charging and how full its battery is, is
> also displayed/displayable when the phone is switched 'off'.
>
> Ergo, the phone is never really off. It's either awake or sleeping
> during normal use or in cold standby when the user switched it 'off'.

Bullshit!
The OS is not booted when the Android is turned off.

--
"Alea icacta est." (Julius Caesar)

micky wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> If you press the power button* and the screen comes on in under one
>> second the phone wasn't OFF, it was just ASLEEP.
>
> I thought if the screen comes on in under a second that means the screen
> has been blackened, and everything else was/is ON. It runs down the
> battery a lot faster than sleeping should.

That's what I mean, if you can "wake-up" the phone, in under a second,
it never was "off" to begin with ...

On 26.04.24 08:53, Andy Burns wrote:
> micky wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> If you press the power button* and the screen comes on in under one
>>> second the phone wasn't OFF, it was just ASLEEP.
>>
>> I thought if the screen comes on in under a second that means the screen
>> has been blackened, and everything else was/is ON. It runs down the
>> battery a lot faster than sleeping should.
>
> That's what I mean, if you can "wake-up" the phone, in under a second,
> it never was "off" to begin with ...

It is just stand-by and fully functional.

--
"Alea icacta est." (Julius Caesar)

On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 18:55:24 -0400, bad sector wrote:

> The net is full of people having issues with phones they only thought
> were OFF. My android Zflip is even worse that a simple conventional
> design. Most times I turn it OFF/ON to be sure, there being no obvious,
> bulletproof, always in your face, indication which should be a prerequisite.

Snowden would take out the battery to be sure. <g>

--
s|b

On 4/26/24 6:09 AM, s|b wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 18:55:24 -0400, bad sector wrote:
>
>> The net is full of people having issues with phones they only thought
>> were OFF. My android Zflip is even worse that a simple conventional
>> design. Most times I turn it OFF/ON to be sure, there being no obvious,
>> bulletproof, always in your face, indication which should be a prerequisite.
>
> Snowden would take out the battery to be sure. <g>

I wonder if any of the phone companies offer spy-friendly
cyanide-in-the-tooth-type features in their advertising...

--
Cheers, Bev
It only takes 2 men to tile a bathroom
if you slice them thinly enough.

On 4/25/24 21:28, micky wrote:
> In comp.mobile.android, on Thu, 25 Apr 2024 07:00:53 -0400, bad?sector
> <forgetski@_INVALID.net> wrote:
>
>> On 4/25/24 05:29, Nick Cine wrote:
>>> On Thu, 25 Apr 2024 09:47:17 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>>
>>>>> [*] or any other action such as lifting it up, or touching the screen,
>>>>> or poking the fingerprint reader.
>>>>
>>>> The lifting it up thing is interesting. I wonder if that's done with an
>>>> accelerometer? If so, it would be checking that too.
>>>
>>> A few more comments, but I don't know much about this topic.
>>>
>>> 1. Even if a phone is "off", when you plug in a charger, "something
>>> happens", so is it really off? I don't know, but how does it charge?
>>>
>>> 2. The government has, in the past, secretly modified gangster's phones
>>> such that they looked to be off, but were secretly still transmitting.
>>>
>>> 3. The iPhone, I believe, is never off, which, I'm told, is how the FindMy
>>> sensing works for stolen phones.
>>>
>>> How does any of that work? I don't know.
>>
>> For one thing the battery should be removable with one hand,
>> blindfolded, in 3 seconds or less.
>
> Wyatt Earp could do that but I can't.

Regulations require it for oxygen masks, if enough people demand it the
same lawmakers can just as easily require it for cell phones as well.

On 4/26/24 09:09, s|b wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Apr 2024 18:55:24 -0400, bad sector wrote:
>
>> The net is full of people having issues with phones they only thought
>> were OFF. My android Zflip is even worse that a simple conventional
>> design. Most times I turn it OFF/ON to be sure, there being no obvious,
>> bulletproof, always in your face, indication which should be a prerequisite.
>
> Snowden would take out the battery to be sure. <g>

It's like built-in wifi, first thing I do is cut it's wires and use a
usb transceiver instead for actual physical control (after sticking gum
on the camera lens and mic pinholes). The first thing we have to do to
big bro is stomp on his balls, else the scum of the earth will want a
*7/24 streaming colonoscopy* from everyone.

Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> wrote:
> On 25.04.24 15:55, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> >> The charging circuitry is within the battery itself. It controls the
> >> rate of charge and, in particular, monitors the temperature of the
> >> cell(s). If it gets too high it will stop the charging. Note though,
> >> that the connection from the phone's charger socket (lightning, USB, or
> >> whatever) goes through some of the phone's circuitry, so the phone knows
> >> the state of charge of its battery. That way its % charge can be
> >> displayed on the phone's screen, and battery-usage apps can let you know
> >> what's being used and how long the phone might last before recharging is
> >> essential.
> >
> > The fact that the phone is charging and how full its battery is, is
> > also displayed/displayable when the phone is switched 'off'.
> >
> > Ergo, the phone is never really off. It's either awake or sleeping
> > during normal use or in cold standby when the user switched it 'off'.
>
> Bullshit!
> The OS is not booted when the Android is turned off.

AIUI it is, kind of. When you plug in the charger with the phone off, the
phone starts. The bootloader then launches the Android kernel with the flag
androidboot.mode=charger

Instead of doing the full Android boot, that causes the kernel to launch a
charger UI application that shows your battery percentage on the screen or
an animation (which comes from files on your OS partition). The charger app
doesn't allow you to otherwise interact with the phone and other services
like the radios aren't running, but the SoC is booted and running software.
The SoC is also doing standard power management, ie the charging process
here likely looks very similar to charging when the phone is turned on
(because it is, in essence).

The full OS services are not running, but the Android kernel and the charger
app is.

Theo
(usual caveats: my understanding may be out of date, different vendors may
do their own thing, etc)

On 4/24/2024 6:55 PM, bad sector wrote:
> The net is full of people having issues with phones they only thought
> were OFF. My android Zflip is even worse that a simple conventional
> design. Most times I turn it OFF/ON to be sure, there being no obvious,
> bulletproof, always in your face, indication which should be a
> prerequisite.
>
>

Frankly I don't understand all this confusion. I have an Android
TCL Tracfone. If I press the power button it goes black but
can receive calls. I've turned off the screen. If I hold the power
button I get 3 options. One is to power off. I select that. It says
it's shutting down. I can then leave the phone in my glove
compartment for about 3 months without losing juice, and I'm
not being tracked. If I don't power down then I am tracked and
I think the battery lasts maybe 2 days. (I've only tried it once,
by accident. I never leave the power on except when making a call.)

To turn it on again I have to hold down the power button until it
vibrates, then wait for a Win98-style boot process.

Maybe it's different on some cellphones, or on iPhones? From the
posts here it sounds like all Androids work the same way that mine
does.

On 4/27/24 08:23, Newyana2 wrote:
> On 4/24/2024 6:55 PM, bad sector wrote:
>> The net is full of people having issues with phones they only thought
>> were OFF. My android Zflip is even worse that a simple conventional
>> design. Most times I turn it OFF/ON to be sure, there being no
>> obvious, bulletproof, always in your face, indication which should be
>> a prerequisite.
>
>  Frankly I don't understand all this confusion. I have an Android
> TCL Tracfone. If I press the power button it goes black but
> can receive calls. I've turned off the screen. If I hold the power
> button I get 3 options. One is to power off. I select that. It says
> it's shutting down. I can then leave the phone in my glove
> compartment for about 3 months without losing juice, and I'm
> not being tracked. If I don't power down then I am tracked and
> I think the battery lasts maybe 2 days. (I've only tried it once,
> by accident. I never leave the power on except when making a call.)
>
>   To turn it on again I have to hold down the power button until it
> vibrates, then wait for a Win98-style boot process.
>
>   Maybe it's different on some cellphones, or on iPhones? From the
> posts here it sounds like all Androids work the same way that mine
> does.

You may not understand it but the fact remains that there *is* a lot of
confusion and my take on it is that the reason for the confusion is
shitty design. There have been and continue occurring thousands of live
mic or phone incidents EVEN with well designed idiot-proof LOW-TECH
devices. Digital crap should have either a hard on/off switch that does
nothing else AND an easily removable battery. My flexphone has half a
dozen ways to be turned off and even when I will know them all by heart
they WILL NOT suffice. Having to trust that the OS has turned the mic or
itself off is not the answer; it's a bit like democracy where it isn't
the right or the wrong of the issue that decides but the will of the
user (illustration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S5q4bF6lac).

--
Oh Lord of the Keyrings on high, have I got bad news for you: the word
trust is nowhere to be found in my security dictionary.