Jesse Rehmer <jesse.rehmer@blueworldhosting.com> writes:

> It is difficult. Usenet server software came from the UNIX world, there may be
> some ancient Windows software out there, but its likely not going to work on a
> modern version of Windows or it is still commercial.
>
> UNIX/Linux administration skills are necessary and INN and Diablo (the
> primarily used server packages still in use) have steep learning curves.
> There are no easy out of the box solutions.
>
> You need to arrange peers to exchange articles with or your server will not
> receive any news. This also has a learning curve as you need to be able to
> filter based on various peer requirements. Some peers won't accept certain
> hierarchies, specific groups, binaries, articles larger than a certain size,
> etc. You need to be able to configure those parameters in the software you
> chose.
>
> Processing control messages (new group creation, group removal, article
> cancels, etc.) requires basic understanding of PGP.
>
> You will need to implement authentication and access control (authentication
> mechanisms often not "built in" and require external tooling) for NNRP.
>
> Leafnode can be something to look at to get some idea of they work, but its
> not quite the same thing as it relies on a single upstream source for all
> articles and doesn't have the same concepts of feeds and peers.
>
> You will want to filter for spam, this can be time consuming, requires
> understanding of regular expressions and Perl/Python.
>
> If you provide access to your server for other users to post you need to be
> vigilant as Usenet servers are commonly abused. If you ignore this and allow
> your server to become overrun with spammers eventually your peers will de-peer
> with you.
>
> That said, once you've invested the time to implement a server correctly, they
> mostly run themselves them that point forward. You may need to deal with abuse
> whether from your users or upstream peers who do not filter.
>
> And all the effort is on you. Besides the communities in groups like
> news.software.nntp or news.admin.peering, and the INN documentation, there is
> very little usable information for beginners online.

Perhaps I'll say something that other administators might not like, but
I'll say it anyway. It's not difficult. Or, at least, it shouldn't be,
and it's not if you understand how things are working. It's actually
super simple. NNTP is super simple, and Usenet article format is super
simple.

Most people don't realize how small text Usenet is. 20 mins video on
Youtube is about as big as 24 hours of traffic of text Usenet. Just
think about it: you start driving in your car, you press play on a
playlist in YouTube app on your iPhone, and few hours later, when you
show up at your destination, you already used more traffic than most of
text Usenet servers use in a week. If you let YouTube play music
overnight, it's more traffic than most servers see in a month. In other
words, your phone can handle more Usenet than absolute most of free
Usenet servers are doing right now, including E-S, Individual, Aioe,
etc. Most people that use torrents are consuming more traffic per day
than most Usenet servers are consuming in months, and their computers
are performing more sophisticated computations than most text Usenet
servers are doing.

Of course it's little bit different story if you want to do some
archiving, or if you want to process binary messages, or something like
that. But in general...

Theoretically it should be possible that any of us can carry a Usenet
server in a pocket, installed with one click, and after that it finds
peers itself just like BitTorrent or Tor do, and we won't even notice
the difference when we load our newsreaders. Such software can be using
NNTP itself to exchange public keys and other data, and it can implement
web of trust to deal with potential abusers, and it will be backward-
compatible with normal Usenet servers, and... and it's all just a dream,
lol. Maybe one day... maybe not. Probably not.

Seriously though, even right now the biggest problem with INN is
probably the fact that it requires fully qualified domain name or static
IP to function. But this issue was resolved long time ago in BitTorrent
world, and is not even considered an issue anymore. What *exactly* makes
installing and using INN more complicating than installing and using
uTorrent? In theory, that is?

On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 04:34:33 -0000 (UTC), LO AND BEHOLD; Neodome Admin
<admin@neodome.net> determined that the following was of great
importance and subsequently decided to freely share it with us in
<tuu68n$1rjo$1@neodome.net>:
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= Jesse Rehmer <jesse.rehmer@blueworldhosting.com> writes:
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= It is difficult. Usenet server software came from the UNIX world, there
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= may be some ancient Windows software out there, but its likely not going
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= to work on a modern version of Windows or it is still commercial.
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= UNIX/Linux administration skills are necessary and INN and Diablo (the
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= primarily used server packages still in use) have steep learning curves.
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= There are no easy out of the box solutions. You need to arrange peers
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= to exchange articles with or your server will not receive any news.
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= This also has a learning curve as you need to be able to filter based
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= on various peer requirements. Some peers won't accept certain
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= hierarchies, specific groups, binaries, articles larger than a certain
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= size, etc. You need to be able to configure those parameters in the
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= software you chose. Processing control messages (new group creation,
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= group removal, article cancels, etc.) requires basic understanding of
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= PGP. You will need to implement authentication and access control
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= (authentication mechanisms often not "built in" and require external
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= tooling) for NNRP. Leafnode can be something to look at to get some
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= idea of they work, but its not quite the same thing as it relies on a
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= single upstream source for all articles and doesn't have the same
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= concepts of feeds and peers. You will want to filter for spam, this can
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= be time consuming, requires understanding of regular expressions and
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= Perl/Python. If you provide access to your server for other users to
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= post you need to be vigilant as Usenet servers are commonly abused. If
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= you ignore this and allow your server to become overrun with spammers
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= eventually your peers will de-peer with you. That said, once you've
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= invested the time to implement a server correctly, they mostly run
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= themselves them that point forward. You may need to deal with abuse
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= whether from your users or upstream peers who do not filter. And all
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= the effort is on you. Besides the communities in groups like
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= news.software.nntp or news.admin.peering, and the INN documentation,
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= =?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= there is very little usable information for beginners online.
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= Perhaps I'll say something that other administators might not like, but
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= I'll say it anyway. It's not difficult. Or, at least, it shouldn't be,
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= and it's not if you understand how things are working. It's actually
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= super simple. NNTP is super simple, and Usenet article format is super
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= simple.
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= Most people don't realize how small text Usenet is. 20 mins video on
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= Youtube is about as big as 24 hours of traffic of text Usenet. Just
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= think about it: you start driving in your car, you press play on a
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= playlist in YouTube app on your iPhone, and few hours later, when you
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= show up at your destination, you already used more traffic than most of
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= text Usenet servers use in a week. If you let YouTube play music
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= overnight, it's more traffic than most servers see in a month. In other
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= words, your phone can handle more Usenet than absolute most of free
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= Usenet servers are doing right now, including E-S, Individual, Aioe,
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= etc. Most people that use torrents are consuming more traffic per day
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= than most Usenet servers are consuming in months, and their computers
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= are performing more sophisticated computations than most text Usenet
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= servers are doing.
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= Of course it's little bit different story if you want to do some
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= archiving, or if you want to process binary messages, or something like
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= that. But in general...
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= Theoretically it should be possible that any of us can carry a Usenet
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= server in a pocket, installed with one click, and after that it finds
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= peers itself just like BitTorrent or Tor do, and we won't even notice
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= the difference when we load our newsreaders. Such software can be using
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= NNTP itself to exchange public keys and other data, and it can
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= implement web of trust to deal with potential abusers, and it will be
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= backward- compatible with normal Usenet servers, and... and it's all
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= just a dream, lol. Maybe one day... maybe not. Probably not.
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= Seriously though, even right now the biggest problem with INN is
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= probably the fact that it requires fully qualified domain name or
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= static IP to function. But this issue was resolved long time ago in
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= BitTorrent world, and is not even considered an issue anymore. What
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= *exactly* makes installing and using INN more complicating than
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= installing and using uTorrent? In theory, that is?
=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?=

I don't think that's the problem.

--

Golden Killfile, June 2005
KOTM, November 2006
Bob Allisat Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker, November 2006
Special Ops Cody Memorial Purple Heart, November 2006
Special Ops Cody Memorial Purple Heart, September 2007
Tony Sidaway Memorial "Drama Queen" Award, November 2006
Busted Urinal Award, April 2007
Order of the Holey Sockpuppet, September 2007
Barbara Woodhouse Memorial Dog Whistle, September 2006
Barbara Woodhouse Memorial Dog Whistle, April 2008
Tinfoil Sombrero, February 2007
AUK Mascot, September 2007
Putting the Awards Out of Order to Screw With the OCD Fuckheads, March 2016

On 3/15/23 10:34 PM, Neodome Admin wrote:
> Perhaps I'll say something that other administators might not like, but
> I'll say it anyway. It's not difficult. Or, at least, it shouldn't be,
> and it's not if you understand how things are working. It's actually
> super simple. NNTP is super simple, and Usenet article format is
> super simple.

Either you have first hand experience doing this and can comment as
such, or you don't. Which is it?

I question the authenticity of the email address used to post the
message that I'm replying to. Mostly because I would expect Neodome's
admin to know the things that I'm saying.

> Theoretically it should be possible that any of us can carry a Usenet
> server in a pocket, installed with one click, and after that it finds
> peers itself just like BitTorrent or Tor do, and we won't even notice
> the difference when we load our newsreaders. Such software can be
> using NNTP itself to exchange public keys and other data, and it can
> implement web of trust to deal with potential abusers, and it will
> be backward- compatible with normal Usenet servers, and... and it's
> all just a dream, lol. Maybe one day... maybe not. Probably not.

There are multiple pieces of that, each with different values of current
truth vs future dreams.

> Seriously though, even right now the biggest problem with INN is
> probably the fact that it requires fully qualified domain name or
> static IP to function.

Full stop. That is wrong. INN does not require an FQDN. INN doesn't
even require external IP connectivity.

> But this issue was resolved long time ago in BitTorrent world, and is
> not even considered an issue anymore. What *exactly* makes installing
> and using INN more complicating than installing and using uTorrent? In
> theory, that is?

INN could work without any external IP connectivity before BitTorrent
was a twinkle in it's creator's eye.

Establishing peers and connecting to them is where INN *wants* /but/
/doesn't/ /rquire/ external IP connectivity.

There are multiple ways to transfer articles /without/ IP or an FQDN.

Peer identification is an entirely different, and thusfar manual,
process. I maintain that it should not be fully automatic for a number
of reasons. It could be simplified wihtout making it fully automatic.

--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

On 3/15/23 23:34, Neodome Admin wrote:

<le sneep>

> Theoretically it should be possible that any of us can carry a Usenet
> server in a pocket, installed with one click, and after that it finds
> peers itself just like BitTorrent or Tor do, and we won't even notice
> the difference when we load our newsreaders. Such software can be using
> NNTP itself to exchange public keys and other data, and it can implement
> web of trust to deal with potential abusers, and it will be backward-
> compatible with normal Usenet servers, and... and it's all just a dream,
> lol. Maybe one day... maybe not. Probably not.
>
> Seriously though, even right now the biggest problem with INN is
> probably the fact that it requires fully qualified domain name or static
> IP to function. But this issue was resolved long time ago in BitTorrent
> world, and is not even considered an issue anymore. What *exactly* makes
> installing and using INN more complicating than installing and using
> uTorrent? In theory, that is?

Your observation on complexity of software applies not only to NNTP but
to a lot of software and protocols.

Some techies want it to be complicated and arcane. Some techies desire a
high bar to entry. Some nerds don't want to release software that just
"works." They want you troubleshooting the install for three days. They
want you troubleshooting the configuration for another three days. They
want you troubleshooting bugs for another three days. They want you
spending two hours composing a patch so it can work on your system. They
want everyone else to waste time patching for each of their unique
systems. They like long-winded, expertly crafted bug reports. They love
giving a one-line answer to these bug reports that took an hour to
compose and verify, so they can with one line of text mark them
irrelevant and send you back to the drawing board. Some nerds enjoy this
asymmetric balance of power and time investment. They are sucking your
time into their power infinity gauntlet.

They want absolutely no improvement or progress on the design of the
protocol and its applications. This way they can live in a dead past era
where nerds were supreme and revered. Nerd supremacy is a fun way to
frustrate people and make them waste their time.

After you spend a lot of time fixing the problems and you finally get
the software to work, the nerd supremacist updates the software and
everything breaks again. They count the regressions like sheep in their
dreams.

If they simply released an application that you execute to install and
run, you would be happy, and that can't be allowed to happen. Releasing
software with needless complexity and pitfalls is a subtle way of
saying, "I rule--because you suffer."

--

nerd suprema.c